We NEED a Core-Group for BRC!

....hi my friends, this will be hard now, but i must talk about it.

If we want to continue after T1 bosses, we must create a core-group for BRC-raids. This means max. equiped toons from "usefull" players with high experiance. "Usefull" means players who uses their abbilities at the right time, for the right reason. This must be discussed and maybe trained by some players.

Many "RAIDers" do a great job in raids by organizing and helping for a "done Raidboss". These players must be supported more for their work. Be a part in a raid is not only hitting a button to do damage and claim a purple item, while others must manage to do dmg and stopping time, kite some adds and have a look for "wrong" activities.

I will have BRC completed! :S

I agree 100% Lazarusson, but I would like to expand on your comments:

I have not been in Ordo a long time but I have raided a lot, and I do know that if we want to move forward into BRC we need to make some major changes in how things are done. My following comments might seem like huge criticisms but let me assure you they are not, they are merely suggestions on how to make our Raids more successful.

Raid group: I think our main raid group should be expanded to around 30 players, if we cant get 30 regular Ordos players we should just recruit them, I dont like it when epics are lost to guests, it does not help our guilds raid progression at all. Expanding the raid group to 30 will give us some flexibility when raiding and will be especially usefull when we start full time on BRC. I also think our main tank group should be a set group made up of our most experienced players. One last point on the raid group is that more thought needs to be put into our builds so our team builds synergise better.

Loot: A major issue, I feel that the current NEED/GREED loot system is very unfair and that we should change to a loot rotation system or a points system.

Class Leaders: I think we should introduce a class leader system so that the more experienced members can mentor the less experienced players, for example: Daemonweaver would be in charge of all the POMs, Ragnarson would be in charge of the Rangers etc etc. Looking through damage logs you can see exactly how many of each attacks, spells, debuffs & heals were cast. Currently there are massive differences in raids with regards to damage and debuffs, this urgently needs to be addressed if we want to move forward into BRC.

It's a lot to take in but if we implement these steps we will have a much more fun and success in our raids.

Yes, Laz. I agree. As a matter of fact I've been brewing the idea of a "raid training" in my mind for some time. Let's get the people together in some nice, controlled enviroment - like epic bats - and test things such as raid-specific feats, group compositions, aggro-keeping & such ... and practise.

And Chip, I agree with all points on your post. We need a few more players that are truly active within the raid group, and ask them to take at least few feats purely for raid purposes AND use them in raids properly. It will make a big difference, if the groups are properly organized. As for looting, personally I liked the idea of the rotating priority system. People of each class rotate with the priviledge of having the first choise of either passing or claiming the item. You claim an item, you drop to the last position on the priority queue. The system is simple and gives those who already have a lot of items a good chance to claim the item they really want. This is something I'd like to discuss more. As for class leaders (or class representatives, or class liaisons), we definitely need some kind of method to share information and thoughts about what works and what doesn't in a raid, and assigning a specific "contact person" for such discussions for each class has been discussed in the past and received positive feedback (and maybe have the occasional "raid trainings" every now and then).

As Chip said, being successful will be more fun and enjoyable to everyone, and to reach that some steps have to be taken. So, folks, please reply with your ideas, comments, feels. Thank you.

Hepskuq - Here is an example of the loot rotation system:

My suggested class loot rules:
A. Trash Loot: Belts in T1 and Shoulders in T2 are rolled on, and are are not included in the loot rotation.
B. Alt Guardians on a main Raid do not get Guardian loot unless ALL main Raid guardians present in the raid already have the Item.
C. The Class leader is responsible for the performance of every Main Raid Guardian, this includes training and advice on Tanking builds. This means that if Guardians are running sub-optimal builds they should change them to benefit the guilds raid progression.
D. Guardians may NOT raid unless they have completed their Destiny Quest, this includes Main and Alt Guardians. They may not raid in Vistrix unless they have the "Master of the Silver Peacock" Quest. Following the first kill of Vistrix the quest chain to enter BRC must be completed before any further raiding. Giving epics to players that cannot go into BRC holds up the guilds raid progression!
E. When an Item drops the Guardian in the number 1 slot may take the Item. If he takes it he moves down to the bottom of the list and everyone else moves up one place. If he passes, the person in the number 2 slot has the option to take the item or pass. If the number 2 person takes the item he moves to the bottom of the list and everyone else moves up one place.
F. "The AFK Rule". If you miss 3 consecutive raids you will be moved to last place in the loot rotation, missing 6 consectuive raids will result in you being moved onto the Alt roster. If the class leader is informed, Guardians who go on holiday or have a familly emergency will be "locked" the position they are in until they return.
G. The loot rotation list must be maintained and updated by each class leader following every raid. If the class leader is AFK then another guardian must update the list.

This is an example of the Main Guardian loot rotation list.
Main RAID Guardians: Once you win an item (non-trash loot) you move to the bottom of the list and everyone else moves up one place.
1. Atta
2. Tankman
3. Majestic
4. Elijah
5. Deryck

Alt Guardians: Alts do not get loot unless all Main Raid Guardians have the item. Once you win an item (non-trash loot) you move to the bottom of the list and everyone else moves up. Alt Guardians are exempt from the "AFK Rule".
1. Katy
2. Ayrr

Hi

Thanks Chip for putting the system down so clearly.
I really feel this is what we need to start doing so that the Ordo raid group can finally start kicking Butt in BRC, especially as wing 3 is now open and we are still stuck on the Gargoyle master wing 1 (a boss who we should have ripped the heart out of and eaten with fava beans and a nice Chianti a bloody long time a go).
I fully support your proposal along with the introduction of class leaders/ liasons 100%. Ordo has some amazing players and some great people if we can just get a bit more organised we will tear BRC to pieces.

Daemonweaver

Greetings;

Finaly, we're getting someware. A system to Loot the Loot.
To tell you the truth, i'm almost "afraid" to mention "I Need". There have been some "negative" responces,
concerning my Epics.
Knowing that 70% of it i have won (before i became an Ordo-member) Raiding with "AotD" and "The Alliance" or Questing
I'm not complaining, its just a fact. It will be harder to get the NEEDED Items, the more you get.
So, why not implement an extra point-system, where a Raider gets a point for every Ordo-Raid he/she attends.
(So that someone if Class-needed, will be able to bid for it.)
So, if any of the same Class "really" need/want the Item, they can bid a number of POINTS they want to spend on the Item.
Then the highest bidder will win this item. This will result in losing those earned points.
He/she will also be set back to the bottom of the list as normal
Making him/her weaker the next time. And, it will be more exiting to get the Item you "REALLY" want

Its just an IDEA

@ Daemonweaver - thanks for the nice comments.

@ Termie - i'm sure people dont have a problem with you. I'm positive people are frustrated with the unfair need/greed system! As for a points system, thats another great option Termie! The points system can be run in game with the bot, it's very easy to do so. The only thing we need to do is sort out how many points you get for raiding etc. I'll put down a few suggestions for a points system.

The rules regarding alts and mains in the class loot post I made earlier would still stand, obviously the loot rotation would change to a points system, something like this:

For attending and completing a T1 Raid. 1 point
Vistrix = 1 point
Yakhmar = 1 point
Honorguard & Kylikki = 1 point

For attending and completing a T2 Raid. 2 points
A T2 Raid would be 1 Boss from BRC.
Until we progress further each boss in BRC would be counted as a seperate Raid. This would change when we became more proficient.

For a Guild first Kill a bonus of. 3 points
The first time we kill a new raidboss all atendees get 3 points.

For a server first Kill a bonus of. 5 points
If we kill a boss before all other guilds on the server we get 5 points each.

Minimum bid for a T1 Item. 1 point
1 point is the minimum bid for a T1 item. If you are the only person without the item you still lose 1 point when you recieve the item.

Minimum bid for a T2 Item. 2 points
2 points is the minimum bid for a T2 item. If you are the only person without the item you still lose 2 points when you recieve the item.

BIDDING:
There are two types of bidding.

OPEN BIDDING: all bids are in raidchat, you may bid and counterbid just like in an auction. The winner is the player that bid the most points. The points are immediately subtracted from the winners account through the bot.

CLOSED BIDDING: all bids are done in private to the raid leader, you may only bid once, the winner is the player that bid the most points. The points are immediately subtracted from the winners account through the bot. (Imo this is the best way)

thx all for the nice lootsystems but as long we are only speak (grrrr, typical aquilonian thing) about a new system i dont want to raid anymore.

CHANGE THE LOOTSYSTEM as quick as possible or u will loose more "usefull" RAIDer.

I totally agree with Chip,Dae and Lazarusson.The Loot System FAILED.We need a better one.Also we need experienced and usefull Players in our Raids.We got enough People in Ordo,so why we didnt sort out the People who are not Raidcompatible or tell them how to play.Maybe build a second Raidgroup for those who need experience to teach tactics.There are a lot of wasted T1 items on Players who dont know how to use it the right way in Raids.

So please PLEASE did some decission on next Ambassador meeting.

Lootsystem

I always thought a loot-system is the best way to earn your gear or get points. In other words, you work hard and get rewarded for work, not for having luck and being in the right spot at the right moment. I agree also to a main and alt policy, mains should go before alts, when mains are full alts will get epics based on the points they want to spend.

So please discuss the topic in the ambassador meeting and choose wisely. Pyrocraft has a nice excelsheet you could use, unless you want to make one yourself ofcourse.

According the afk discussion; a summerholiday should not cause you to have no access to the main-raid-group when you come back. We need to find a solution to that too I think.

See you,

Jinxer.



Will be fun, I'll be a demonologist with 280 points and 3 epic over 5 years

A couple of thoughts ...

It would be ideal indeed if we could get the mentioned 30 or so people together, people who are able and willing to be truly active in the raid content, able to attend on the pre-determined dates and times, cooperative with their playing styles and feat builds (with a word: hard-core) from the guild alone, but I seriously doubt it is a realistic possibility. Ordo and the server simply don't have enough population for that. If we start recruiting and waiting for the right stuff to come to our doorstep, we might have to wait for a long time (and is it only people for raiding that we'd be recruiting? I think Ordo is not regarded by anyone as a hard-core raid guild). People have loyalty to their guilds, and in my opinion it would be wrong to conditionalise them. So far we've just had to use "mercenaries" (non-Ordos) in a vast majority of the raids we've arranged, and frankly I have a problem with the policy of giving them lower priority regarding basically everything. To be honest, I detest such a policy simply because of the circumstances - no one can afford such a thing with the population figures at the moment (and partly because it is somewhat hypocritic).

One solution might be to keep on having the raids we do now, preferring guildies to fill up the spots. Let's call these "Guild raids". But we also establish a separate, more "hard-core" group that is completely detached from the guild concept. It simply consists of people (from different guilds, if and when it's necessary) who are able and willing to gather at the agreed dates and times (and truly be there, unless there's some unforeseen incident which prevents them), who don't have a problem committing one of their characters as their main character for this raid group and, if deemed necessary, alter their playing style and feat build and undergo "training" to benefit the raid group more. It is also crucial that these people are such that can enjoy or at least get along with each other. In this group we immediately implement an improved looting system, treating each and everyone equally, regardless of guild. In case a replacement is needed from outside the select group, only the replacement has lower priority in receiving items.

As to who will organise these two separate raids - I can do one, but not both.

I fail to see why it feels bad when an item is received by someone who is not a member of Ordo, just as long as it is someone who is active and regular (loyal) with the raids we organise. Being a member of a guild doesn't guarantee a person's habitat for eternity any better than being a regular, non-guildie participant in a regular raid group. In fact, I think people become more bonded with each other attending a common raid than being a member of a guild. People leaving the guild is not unprecedented. If we begin to place a greater priority when it comes to receiving loot to member's of Ordo (as I've heard we should), we will have trouble filling the raid fully. Then we would be waiting at the door to an instance, sending tells to random people on the server which basically say: "We're this hard-core raid guild who doesn't have enough players. Can you come and enable us kill the boss, but know that you will not get any loot whatsoever?"

... 2 raidgroups are not helpfull, because we are not enough player on our server to get 24 ppl per raidgroup together. And i want to raid with the casual ordogroup to help my friends to get their items, but the dice wont help us to go to the next level (BRC).

You are saying a lot about changing the loot system due to "need/greed" being unfair. And what is proposed instead? Loot system where some ppl are priviledged (main riad group) and others have lower priority for receiving items (Alts). Btw Chip, I'm not sure whether you meant alt chars (for example my alt is Bark so automatically he has lower loot priority?) or alts-replacement for raid (still, this is not changing my approach and opinion about this proposal).
I totally disagree with such conception no matter whether it is related to Ordo's alts or ppl from other guilds!
And one more thing about rotation loot system, I must admit - it has some advandages (items are distributed more less equally) but at the same time ppl who have a lot of items are priviledged, they have greater chance to get rare drops (so once again, it is in favour of those in main raid group).
In "need/greed" system everyone has EQUAL change to get the item, and this is a fact.

Most of the above proposed changes when implement will create a group of rather hard core players and relatively closed for more casual Ordos. Since it is your goal and it is required to do more succesful raids, you can ignore everything I wrote above.

And as for me? Well I don't have much time for raiding (although I'd love to) and I guess I cannot call myself an hardcore player. Consequently, most likely I'll be an eternal "raid's alt" with lower loot priority, which is not leaving much space for fun.

AZ

@ Jinxer

F. "The AFK Rule". If you miss 3 consecutive raids you will be moved to last place in the loot rotation, missing 6 consectuive raids will result in you being moved onto the Alt roster. If the class leader is informed, Guardians who go on holiday or have a familly emergency will be "locked" the position they are in until they return.

It clearly says if there is a holiday or familly emergency you will be locked in place. This means you stay in the position you are in when you go on holiday or have your familly emergency - instead of being put to the bottom of the loot rotation for being afk.

@ Ayrr By main character I mean your "Main Raid Character". I have many lvl 80s accross 2 accounts - my main raid character is Atta, one of my Guardians. Following my suggestions none of my other lvl 80 alts would get priority over any main character in our main raids. The idea is to gear up our main raid characters with the aim of progressing to T2 and eventually T3. So if I brought my other guardian (an alt) to a main raid I would NOT get any epics unless all main guardians have the item.

The NEED/GREED system is not fair m8. Yes everyone has an equal chance of getting loot, but still the loot is not distributed fairly. Look at the rangers of Ordos - they are a prime example. Miley won her NEED rolls fair and square and is nearly full epic while Rangers like Aptemis and Lasarusson have nothing. This is a bad system. (I am not criticising Miley just pointing out the flawed loot system).

NEED/GREED does not reward the raiders who raid every week, as casual raiders get an equal chance on every roll. Whats the point in being a regular raider in Ordos, putting in the work if there is no benefits?

You also said about the loot rotation system -

ppl who have a lot of items are priviledged, they have greater chance to get rare drops (so once again, it is in favour of those in main raid group)

- I have a lot of items, do you seriously expect me to raid so everyone else can get geared up and I have nothing for my hard work. If this is the case Ayrr I shall stop raiding on my tank and raid on my hox or sin - characters with no epics.
-----------

You guys need to ask yourself what your overall aim is. Do you want to get into BRC, progress into wing 3 and eventually Thoth Amons Stronghold? - If you do you need to seriously get a grip and change the way we raid. We need to gear up the core players and sort out feat builds and the lack of DPS and Debuff in raids. If you want this option thats great, I'm well up for that and will work hard for all the guild to make it happen.

If you are happy with the current casual system - which is inviting whoever turns up and struggling through T1 instances - not having a hope in hells chance of getting into BRC thats fine. But I warn you, eventually we will lose those raiders who want to progress because of lack of progression and the poor loot system. What happens then, is that the people that are left wont even be able to do the T1 Raids. If youre happy with the current system thats also fine, but I wont be raiding with Ordos from next week onwards if there are no changes made to the loot system and the way our raids are run.

For everyone's information, for starters, the loot system will be discussed in a guild meeting on Sunday, and a decision will be made.

Chip wrote:The NEED/GREED system is not fair m8. Yes everyone has an equal chance of getting loot, but still the loot is not distributed fairly. Look at the rangers of Ordos - they are a prime example. Miley won her NEED rolls fair and square and is nearly full epic while Rangers like Aptemis and Lasarusson have nothing. This is a bad system. (I am not criticising Miley just pointing out the flawed loot system).

NEED/GREED does not reward the raiders who raid every week, as casual raiders get an equal chance on every roll. Whats the point in being a regular raider in Ordos, putting in the work if there is no benefits?

You also said about the loot rotation system -

ppl who have a lot of items are priviledged, they have greater chance to get rare drops (so once again, it is in favour of those in main raid group)

- I have a lot of items, do you seriously expect me to raid so everyone else can get geared up and I have nothing for my hard work. If this is the case Ayrr I shall stop raiding on my tank and raid on my hox or sin - characters with no epics.
-----------

You guys need to ask yourself what your overall aim is. Do you want to get into BRC, progress into wing 3 and eventually Thoth Amons Stronghold? - If you do you need to seriously get a grip and change the way we raid. We need to gear up the core players and sort out feat builds and the lack of DPS and Debuff in raids. If you want this option thats great, I'm well up for that and will work hard for all the guild to make it happen.

If you are happy with the current casual system - which is inviting whoever turns up and struggling through T1 instances - not having a hope in hells chance of getting into BRC thats fine. But I warn you, eventually we will lose those raiders who want to progress because of lack of progression and the poor loot system. What happens then, is that the people that are left wont even be able to do the T1 Raids. If youre happy with the current system thats also fine, but I wont be raiding with Ordos from next week onwards if there are no changes made to the loot system and the way our raids are run.

I agree with Chip here. The people who are able (the will to do so is secondary here, since everyone attending a raid is supposed to be willing to be there) to attend to more raids, those whose real-life isn't as time-consuming shall we say, are the ones who deserve the items the most. Not only for their greater work, but for the fact that they're the ones who are more able to deliver the benefits the items provide to the raid group more often. Personally I aim to do T2 and any future tier raids as well, and if it isn't yet realised by everyone, it is not going to be a "walk in the park", and that's how it should be. Would there be any sense of achievement in doing that if there wasn't any challenge involved? Overcoming that challenge simply requires that everyone knows what he's doing with his character and how the characters feats, skills, spells, abilities are put to their best use to achieve the goal of finishing a raid, and this is something we simply must interact with each other to solve. We're doing BRC trash quite often, for example. Why not, the next time we're there, pull a mob and have one of our tanks tank it and have the other tanks observe what combos, what abilities etc. he uses and simply discuss them. Then have one or two melee DPS classes engage the mob and see what they do and analyze and discuss, then caster DPS classes etc.

If we stagnate like we do now, I greatly fear we will lose players who wish to progress and the whole raid experience within Ordo will come to an end.

For everyone's information, for starters, the loot system will be discussed in a guild meeting on Sunday, and a decision will be made.

Chip wrote:The NEED/GREED system is not fair m8. Yes everyone has an equal chance of getting loot, but still the loot is not distributed fairly. Look at the rangers of Ordos - they are a prime example. Miley won her NEED rolls fair and square and is nearly full epic while Rangers like Aptemis and Lasarusson have nothing. This is a bad system. (I am not criticising Miley just pointing out the flawed loot system).

NEED/GREED does not reward the raiders who raid every week, as casual raiders get an equal chance on every roll. Whats the point in being a regular raider in Ordos, putting in the work if there is no benefits?

You also said about the loot rotation system -

ppl who have a lot of items are priviledged, they have greater chance to get rare drops (so once again, it is in favour of those in main raid group)

- I have a lot of items, do you seriously expect me to raid so everyone else can get geared up and I have nothing for my hard work. If this is the case Ayrr I shall stop raiding on my tank and raid on my hox or sin - characters with no epics.
-----------

You guys need to ask yourself what your overall aim is. Do you want to get into BRC, progress into wing 3 and eventually Thoth Amons Stronghold? - If you do you need to seriously get a grip and change the way we raid. We need to gear up the core players and sort out feat builds and the lack of DPS and Debuff in raids. If you want this option thats great, I'm well up for that and will work hard for all the guild to make it happen.

If you are happy with the current casual system - which is inviting whoever turns up and struggling through T1 instances - not having a hope in hells chance of getting into BRC thats fine. But I warn you, eventually we will lose those raiders who want to progress because of lack of progression and the poor loot system. What happens then, is that the people that are left wont even be able to do the T1 Raids. If youre happy with the current system thats also fine, but I wont be raiding with Ordos from next week onwards if there are no changes made to the loot system and the way our raids are run.

I agree with Chip here. The people who are able (the will to do so is secondary here, since everyone attending a raid is supposed to be willing to be there) to attend to more raids, those whose real-life isn't as time-consuming shall we say, are the ones who deserve the items the most. Not only for their greater work, but for the fact that they're the ones who are more able to deliver the benefits the items provide to the raid group more often. Personally I aim to do T2 and any future tier raids as well, and if it isn't yet realised by everyone, it is not going to be a "walk in the park", and that's how it should be. Would there be any sense of achievement in doing that if there wasn't any challenge involved? Overcoming that challenge simply requires that everyone knows what he's doing with his character and how the characters feats, skills, spells, abilities are put to their best use to achieve the goal of finishing a raid, and this is something we simply must interact with each other to solve. We're doing BRC trash quite often, for example. Why not, the next time we're there, pull a mob and have one of our tanks tank it and have the other tanks observe what combos, what abilities etc. he uses and simply discuss them. Then have one or two melee DPS classes engage the mob and see what they do and analyze and discuss, then caster DPS classes etc.

If we stagnate like we do now, I greatly fear we will lose players who wish to progress and the whole raid experience within Ordo will come to an end.

Guys, please keep this polite and stop this argument. This discussion is about the loot system and the way Ordos raids.


PLEASE KEEP ON TOPIC.

NEED/GREED does not reward the raiders who raid every week, as casual raiders get an equal chance on every roll. Whats the point in being a regular raider in Ordos, putting in the work if there is no benefits?

@ Chip I never complained when I was rolled out - on the contrary I was happy that someone got the item and it wasn't wasted. I don't mind being rolled out as long as everyone has equal chance to get the loot. On the other hand I don't see a reason why ppl who attend most of the raids should be priviledged? Yes, they put a lot of work in this etc. but why this should give them some "super status"? So maybe one can say: "I have placed 500 mats in GB during last few days - I expect to be higher on loot priority list as I put a lot of work in this and it was for the good of the guild" Does he has a right to claim such thing?

I have a lot of items, do you seriously expect me to raid so everyone else can get geared up and I have nothing for my hard work. If this is the case Ayrr I shall stop raiding on my tank and raid on my hox or sin - characters with no epics.

@ Chip Interesting. And you expect "alts and replacement" to raid and watch like all others are getting geared up and they only have maybe some left-overs?? You would not be happy with such situation and at the same time you support something similiar, how can that be?

For me it is obvious that all ppl in the raid should have equal rights.

I emphasize this once again - I totally disagree with the loot system, which is based on principle of unequal right to claim for item.

Still, what you are aiming at is to create the group of hard core players and fine - you have right to do so, everything what I wrote above can be ignored in that case. But if you want to implement it as a general raids' policy in the guild then I strongly oppose.

Regards,

AZ

Nie.... wrote:So i again agree with Chip,no one say something about Hardcore Raid guild but i think you all will do Raids(and not only T1).So its necessary to change a lot.Its wasted time to give Items to people who only can Raid once a week or so and Others who came every Raid and do her "Job" GOOD are shitty equiped.

What you wrote is simply outrageous, if this will become official guild loot policy then I will don't have any reason to attend the raids...

AZ

Errr, hmm, i am reading this topic and wonder, are we playing same game, are you fighting for epic loot in AoC, come on guys and girls, IT IS NOT WOW. I looked at stats on epics you put in guild channel and i can say, its shi....)), I agree, cooperation, l2p your class to perfection is key for raids to be done well but fighting for this poor loot? Some of them are cool looking i agree but you holding grudges against REAL LIVING PERSONS becouse BUNCH OF PURPLE PIXELS is beyond my undestanding of fun. Maybe only MT need this gear for tanking but rest? Come on, be serious. You want this DKP system for loot, fine for me cause i don't give a fu.. about this items. After 1.5 patch it will change most probably and peoples without this fat epix will be pariases from raid groups (AoC will take big step forward WoW imho then, sadly). But until then we can have fun cause person who now how to play his class can do his/her stuff with blue/green gear on and epic gear is more trophy like Big Bear Head over fireplace and is not most importand thing for succesfull riding (as said before Tanks could be different department here). And for last words, i have been playing in MMO games abot 4 years by now, and a have seen many many things, and most sad thing i saw during this time was guilds and friends tore apart beacouse gear/exp grind and this is happening all over again and again, sad but true.

p.s. sorry for my bad english, and bad language
p.p.s. sorry for offtopic stuff too

I moved some posts to a new topic, and accidently put in in rp forum.